[1] Radiolab was founded by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich in 2002. And so, they bring MICHAEL MEANEY: A lot of friends to the party. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, Radiolab is a " show about curiosity " that examines science, history, and philosophy to answer the big questions about life. According to Frances, it's not just sitting up there perfectly preserved, it's in the middle of the cell, it's crowded. One time, and I'm on flighter. DESTINY HARRIS: To her, I matter. Have you ever had someone call or write you and say that they regret their decision? ROBERT: Or how much humidity it preferred. You just have to weigh it, is it worth it? You can't see that on the radio but, hey, it's a fact of life. But the results are very clear. And even though they look basically nothing alike. ROBERT: What a name, you've got to like this guy. JAD: So heres the backstory. But with the midwife toad, the female Lays her eggs on land and then the male midwife toad comes along And actually kind of sticks them to his back legs, like a bunch of whitish grapes, and then hops around with them basically until they hatch. Thats just the cold logic of Darwinian evolution. In pictures, he has that, you know, that crazy Einstein fuzzy hair thing. PAT: And that's when things would start to get out of control. He said, "If you were a boy, and you starve between the ages of 9 and 12, and then you went on to become a father, then a grandfather, your grandkids". JAD: What happens, it'll get stuck to one little part of the DNA and now that little bit of DNA FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Is very difficult to get at. This is Radiolab. PAT: And at a certain point, I noticed over my shoulder Barbara's crouched down and she's got her phone out and she's taking a picture of this just perfect little scene. PAT: In this magazine article, Barbara even said, quote, "We don't allow dogs to breed. I went to the hospital and picked him up. CARL ZIMMER: That's the kind of guy he is. Yep, Im a professor in the faculty of medicine at McGill University in Montreal. So its like grandpa's struggle is jumping forward and giving me a leg up? JAD: And looking at these swings in fortune, Olov realized what he had here was JAD: Because with all this data, he and his team could follow families forward in time, through the generations. According to Darwin, life and changes are ruled by chance. So almost instantaneously, the mother's tongue has reached into the baby's brain cells. PAT: So by now it's 1994, and Barbara is thinking PAT: You know? This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Just sing. The question that was stuck in my head right then was, "If you could choose between being born knowing that your life might end up like that and not like it is now, or not been born at all, what would you have done?". JAD: Started with the tongue. ROBERT: They won't grow much on the outside, but on the inside OLOV BYGREN: That is the time where the sperms are developing. And so, you could only see one nuptial pad, and it all comes down to thisand all of that was just about to fall apart. Lots of money. Where we began, they will accomplish. ROBERT: What do you mean? But luckily for the Vivarium and for our story, they had a guy. The way she saw it, the state, the federal government, somebody Should say, "You're not doing this. PAT: Have you ever had someone call or write you and say that they regret their decision? PAT: And I just felt like it was in one of those moments that contains everything that's good about us as people. All the babies I had seen and all the people that have called me to tell me about their babies that were damaged. All the babies I had seen and all the people that have called me to tell me about their babies that were damaged. JAD: It's writer, Sam Kean again, and here's, he says, what you need to know about the midwife toad. The show is nationally syndicated and is available as a podcast. Just don't have any more children because, at that point, I didn't really know any of them. DESTINY HARRIS: That's my little girl. ROBERT: And then the next one after that. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: You have to do that for five hours a day for six consecutive days. That you can, somehow, by just being nice to them, reading them stories, or whatever, that you can somehow break them free of all that. PEJK MALINOVSKI: Okay, I'm here. And Barbara is not offering that. But that you supposedly can't get to. ROBERT: I wonder. BARBARA HARRIS: And when I found out the bill didn't pass, I just thought, "I have to come up with something else. She and I snuck away from the children into her office. They lived longer lives, something like 30 years on average. JAD: Don't you see, somehow the mother's tongue is getting all the way down in there and going [mumbles] and messing with the baby's DNA. There's going to be this massacre of toads and only a few lucky ones are going to survive. The next stage, yes, no? JAD: Michael and Frances looked inside the brains of these rats and what they saw was that the rats who had been licked a lot as babies, they had more stuff in their head. The sperm carries these marks to the next generation. I ended up finding myself really conflicted about it. He was miserable to look at. [ARCHIVAL Clip, Panel: You don't think that they should have their children back?]. SAM KEAN: And so, they just had to hold on for the entire winter. Where sound illuminates ideas, and the boundaries blur between science, philosophy, and human experience. Oh, that's a lot of potatoes. You know, like if you're abused as a kid, you were more likely to abuse your kid, but still, you got to wonder. Move on to the next cage yes, no? The team that creates each episode, including hosts Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, are master storytellers. All jokes aside. You know, like if you're abused as a kid, you were more likely to abuse your kid, but still, you got to wonder. MICHAEL MEANEY: Yeah, you can't touch that. Apparently, those grandkids SAM KEAN: Were less prone to diabetes. PAT: She just knew, "This is my daughter.". Assuming that you can survive the ordeal, and you grow up, and you have kids of your own, the data seems to say that your kids will benefit from your suffering. PAT'S MOM: Radiolab is produced by Jad Abumrad. And since Kammerer kept the heat up, toads basically had to stay there, in this watery place that they had not evolved for. You can't change your DNA. SAM KEAN: Darwin's theory would have said, you know, 90% of the toads are going to die. ROBERT: If you were a great rat mommy, what would you be doing with your rat baby? They like to hang out in the water and the females like to lay eggs in the water. That the licking is changing the baby's DNA? With a child, they give you a whole folder full of information, tells you all about them. SAM KEAN: He was really one of the first grand theorists in biology. She was thinking BARBARA HARRIS: "Everybody's motivated by money., BARBARA HARRIS: Can I offer these women money to use birth control? MICHAEL MEANEY: Kick off certain hormonal systems. And the key point is that it wasnt something inborn in them. I just got custody of my eight-year-old son. Here's what Olov says he found in the data. That the licking is changing the baby's DNA? ], [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: This could mean sterilization, it could mean getting an IUD.]. He thought that because theyre swinging hammers all day, they got big bulky muscles, and then theyd pass the muscles to their children. And Barbara is not offering that. So heres the backstory. Did you know there is a part of this show is gonna be like crazy breaking news, like happened yesterday and we already have a deep take on it? And Barbara and Destiny walked me out to my car. JAD: Or did I somehow learn that? Okay, I'm here. And then they're going to basically revel at that particular spot and turn on that gene. Birth mother's name was actually the same as me, so, Barbara. One time, and I'm on flighter. You feel kind of hemmed in by what your grandfather did? There were four girls and Barbara and Destiny told me that a few years ago they found three of them and they all either were in college or had finished college. I mean, yes, I might get a great family, but I might not. DESTINY HARRIS: Yes. These are women who love their children, who sought help. That was it. So imagine the DNA in that brain cell. I don't know where she gets that from. CARL ZIMMER: Yeah. You are not God. CARL ZIMMER: Enhancing public understanding of science and technology CHARLOTTE ZIMMER: in the modern world. In this episode, originally aired in 2012, we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and change not just our hearts and minds, but the basic biological blueprint that we pass on to future generations._Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today. JAD: Now, according to Carl, your genes are still fixed. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org.]. It's just a mind crushing tedium. JAD: So now, the genes can make the proteins that make the rats a good mom? Kammerer, for one, was sent off to work as a sensor for the Austrian military. ROBERT: You cant say that. Barbara Harris says she's convinced more than a dozen women], Have accepted her offer to be sterilized in return for money.]. ROBERT: So if they saw somebody who was starving as a kid in 1820, they could then see, "Well, when those people had children and grandchildren, did anything change? We inherited this beloved show that we first fell in love with as listeners. Because while you might have a lot of influence, you know, genetically speaking, over your kids and their kids, you don't seem to have a lot of control. You must have internet access to do this). Truth is, we dont know precisely how this happens but somehow the experience of starvation marks the DNA. I make a difference to her. Like have you ever had one of those moments where you suddenly are your dad and it catches you off guard? Full disclosure, she's Robert's sister's partner. BARBARA HARRIS: I mean, I'm married to a Black man. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Yes, yes. Stick around. He was really one of the first grand theorists in biology. Jean Baptiste Lamarck was a pioneer in the . BARBARA HARRIS: "I want to thank you for your support and kindness as always." Its just That's just how I've always looked at it. LYNN PALTROW: Well, her explanation is that these women are having, in her terms, litters of damaged babies and society forever will be responsible for them. ROBERT: You mean, if you had a starving grandfather, you would be a healthier boy for the because you had a starving grandfather? JAD: If the genes are the bottom floor, then this layer on top is sometimes called the epigenome and that thing can change based on your experiences. She's 22 now and she's never even met her birth mom. They began to grow these all puffy things on their hands. My mom needed a girl and, boop! Can you say oh my goodness? JAD: I find myself thinking like, Okay, I know these kids have their genes half from me, half from my wife. JAD: They suddenly had to get by on a tiny fraction of the food that they were used to. ROBERT: And youre saying that part of the DNA is covered up? They like to hang out in the water and the females like to lay eggs in the water. Yeah, like you can help them overcome you. [laughs] "This may hurt you my son, but I'm doing it for my grandchildren.". I'm Sam Kean's dad. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. The results make it probable that our descendants will learn more quickly what we know well, will execute more easily what we have accomplished with great effort, will be able to withstand what injured us almost to the point of death. I mean that's a different kind of odds, but its Our staff includes Alan Horn, Soren Wheeler, Pat Walters With help from Matt Kielty, Chris [unintelligible 01:04:17], Special thanks to Martin [unintelligible 01:04:21], Copyright 2022 New York Public Radio. I know what I'll do, I'm going to set up a terrarium for them and I'm going to make it hot, really uncomfortably hot. She'll be two in January. PAT: And as soon as she got there to pick him up, she could tell that something was wrong. Once a kid is born, their genetic fate is pretty much sealed. ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, Jad Abumrad: Yeah, lets read.]. Radio Lab: Into the Brain of a Liar March 6, 2008 We all lie once a day or so, according to most studies. PAT: But a year later, the social worker called again. [laughs[ So yeah, it's embarrassing, but I believe everything happens for a reason. I tell you what I'm going to do though. That tongue is doing something to the DNA. JAD: These are four kids from the same birth mother? Thats like, I mean, that seems like a thing that would be frightening. Okay, all right, this is interesting. I just didn't think. CARL ZIMMER: So they can grab onto the female and hold tight while they're mating. JAD: Lamarck said, You wanna know how a giraffe got its long neck?, JAD: One day this giraffe, mother giraffe, lets say, was looking up in the tree and saw some fruit, and had to stretch he neck, and stretch again. What's he talking about? And so, her name is Kalia. a rat mother licking her baby can have such a profound effect, basically change the expression of the genes in the baby, well that's hopeful. LATIF: And as of 11:01 a.m. on Tuesday, when we're recording this, we have not broken the show. I'm in public health. This is from 2002. ROBERT: That's interesting. That tongue is doing something to the DNA. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. CARL ZIMMER: He was revealing it with experiments. OLOV BYGREN: The results are there. And that advantage, whatever it was, because it starts with one individual, and then it gets passed onto the kids, and then onto their kids, it would take a long, long, long time to spread through the whole population because, generally, that's how evolution works. In my naive mind, I didn't have a clue what a big deal this was. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. Methylations, phosphorylation, and so on. When Emil gets to be eight, I'm cutting him off. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Methyl groups are pretty sticky, they're hard to get off. These are women who love their children, who sought help. And um BARBARA HARRIS: I had asked for a newborn, so when the social worker called me, she said, "I have this cute little baby girl for you but she's eight months old. CARL ZIMMER: To build these terrariums and aquariums and stock them with animals. That's what good rat mothers do, they lick their babies a lot. ], [ARCHIVAL Clip, Panel: What's the worst thing you have been called by one of your critics? What exactly happens between 9 to 12 that makes this big difference? IMDb is the world's most popular and authoritative source for movie, TV and celebrity content. ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, Jad Abumrad: How bout this one?]. Big questions are. More what kind of stuff? Females seem to hate laying eggs in the water, but is that the end of the story? Meaning that they had less incidence of heart disease? Its a terrible thought! And so, her name is Kalia. [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: Well, I just want to eliminate drug-addicted babies from being born. JAD: They all go down to the DNA, surround that methyl and just, pow! ], I'm going to go out into the streets and offer addicted women money to use birth control. I got these genes from somewhere, but I kind of feel like she was a surrogate, like she carried me for my real mom. 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