I think telling the truth is of much more value than creating or maintaining appearances. The daughter of Matt Slick (big-gun-reformed-apologist) converted to fundamental atheism. So yeah, theres really NOBODY looking over Driscolls shoulder, Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely (Lord Acton). Sadly, I have yet to see even one of these elders or executive staff members repent in a productive, redemptive manner. If Paul was a rogue usurper, Luke was the co-conspirator who legitimized the takeover. You will find that many commenters have been on similar journeys, who share stories of pain and disillusionment with their church experiences. James and you have lived a lifestyle for a long time of trying to prove that Jesus lied. Max: TS00: Or would they even care? Max: ex HCA Staff: Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain. I dont see how were in disagreement, at least in terms of practical application. Dallas Jenkins: There have been many people demanding our statements be made public, and now that they are, are rejoicing in that, 1 Corinthians 13:6 elastigirl: perhaps the other side of this coin can be the joy and happiness of discovering the magnificence of fellow human beings outside the context of christian culture. SiteSeer: This is so very true! Why is any pastor allowed to act like this? Thats too deep to answer. Living in what the people of Chicagoland call "the northwest suburbs" theologian Scot McKnight and his daughter, teacher Laura Barringer had a front row seat when things began unraveling at Harvest Bible Chapel and Willow Creek Community Church, and furthermore were acquainted with many of the people who became a part of our daily Twitter and blog feeds about both stories. Well played. Being close only counts with horseshoes and hand grenades. Bridget: Im, however, convinced that the original disciples didnt completely understand what Jesus intended, nor were they able to carry out His intentions without sin in the mixture. The Evangelical Bubble proclaimed it a Witnessing Tool (as if that was the only reason for anything) and then bought out so many showings a lot of the theaters had to discontinue group tickets. The key is to have a system where checks and balances are in place. Thank you for your insights. Based on my 70-year snapshot of the institutional church, theres a vast difference in what Christ describes vs. what we have put together in this thing we call church. 5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. This will always happen, there is no way to avoid it. Sovereign Grace Ministries Then I read actual instructions on the veneration of Elders as of Christ himself. Too many are like big box stores that shutter all of (the little churches on) Main Street, and then close their own doors forever. hospitable Giving is another way we worship Him and it allows us to demonstrate that He is more important to us than material things. Hmmm it appears that Lauren and Amy are the same person. You were part of a workforce which brought a feeling of camaraderie and purpose and fellowship. maybe a z darn, its just the right word. I can hardly stand to read that section in my Bible, much less watch it acted out. of good testimony with those who are outside (non-Christian) Dallas, As if you werent already a public figure in this scandel. And they swam out to each other through the swirling stream they came Time and again, examples in the Bible show light shinning in darkness. The Chosen is similar to Risen, the excellent faith -based film that . And the same verses in a different Bible, the ESV: 5 And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. Forget about the so called leaders. We see it mentioned on a few occasions in Scripture where elders were appointed in every city. Neither Dean Butters nor I wanted our letters published. At Harvest, the elders oversee the doctrine, direction, and discipline of the church. Dont get me wrong, Pauls writings have many great and wonderful things to say, but when the descriptive gets blurred with the universally prescriptive, what results is just another destructive ideology. As for J.D. But to think you are wholly appointed by God to take pot shots from the distance, not being part of the churches who you blast then Satin has really pulled the wool over your eyes. Harvest was known for emphasizing unapologetic preaching of the Bible, unashamed adoration of God's Son, unafraid witness to the gospel, and unceasing prayer. In the history of the church, which is most seductive:money, sex, or power? Jenkins is jealous that he couldnt run the con as well as Jmac. If you truly believed your comment you would not have posted it. Agreed. When people look back on the history of the American evangelical movement in the first years of the third millennium, I sure hope they will shake their heads and ask why we put up with this nonsense for so long. able to teach Unless it was a danger to someone. Ill follow up with some details later. Not only were the target audience all Christians (from the above buyouts), the would-be Soul-Winners went into shock after the intensity of the showing. You state things so well that there is little to no need to add anything. dee: You chose to serve in a church with incredibly stupid, unbiblical and mean people in charge. That included giving James $20K-$30K a MONTH to spend just on T&E. I truly believe God provides the grace for elders to walk in the attributes in 1Tim 3, You dont have to watch a person for very long to discern whether that person is a grace filled believer or not. No church will fit that ideal in this fallen world. I was a strong donor who loved the church and served in multiple areasI was in a good place spirituallybut I didnt meet the qualifications. What do you make of Luke? Ishy: These churches treat women so badly, but promise men all sorts of things, Matt Chandler says I preach to men. He calls female believers at TVC our girls while hes ensnares them with the beauty of complementarity., NJ: The elders, set in place by God Himself (Ephesians 4:11), are to watch over, tend to and care for the flock of God. Have seen the exact same thing. You also have no idea what else is happening. Harvest Bible Chapel began meeting the Rolling Meadows High School building. According to 1 Timothy 3:1-7 I truly believe God provides the grace for elders to walk in the attributes in 1Tim 3but if a church isnt even looking at those thingsbut rather recommends a person onto an elder board because he/she is strategic or a fundraiser or a CEO or a finance person or a large donor (or whatever nonsensical qualification they THINK they need)this is the departure that I think God says no to. Yet the first line in that post was that Dee would not allow comments. If you dont get why your letter was leaked and why people are upset, I would say youre isolated and you need to take the blinders off. And for keeping ones mouth shut on the way out? These execs like CFO Fred Adams and COO Scott Milholland going into church consulting are the most dangerous. Everyone who is of the Truth, who is a friend of the Truth and belongs to the Truth, hears and listens carefully to My voice. (Jesus, John 18:37). The apostles counted that an honor. No christain organization should have the artibutes that we are reading about, and that Mr Jenkins letter validates. Also such leaders do have authority (God-given). I read your posts as a searing, agonized, utterly sincere *cri de ceour. The worlds fierce winds are blowing, Watch Video. http://churchbuildingministry.org/who-we-are/. +++++++++++++++. That said, the bishops, priests, and deacons are supposed to be models of humility and servanthood. This says you are not comfortable with God being in control, or believe he has the power to work in these earthly maters. Youre right to say kind of. Greg Laurie Feb 27, 2023 Harvest Online Worship Resources Our online church worship resources are designed to help you know God deeper and engage with His word on a whole new level. Because MacDonald earned it. Here are four things you should know about The Chosen: Photo courtesy: VidAngel. If I find solace anywhere, its in the quiet moments of solitude and silence wherein I sense anew that the mysteries of life are vast, and that my continued pursuit of that which is beautiful and simple and true is enough for now. Have seen the exact same thing. Recreated vertical version of "Hallelujah" sang by Heather Headley reflecting on the sacrifice of our savior. i understand the losses you describe, and experience them, too. Ive heard the thunder roll. I guess Dallas understands the power of the written word on the internet. This is even more understandable in our world of online abuse. There is little question in my mind that James MacDonald will flip the bird at Harvest Bible Chapel and start a new church enterprise quicker than you can say leather jacket. What MacDonald has done must be documented, not only for the education of his next set of *followers* but for posterity. Ive felt sins breakers dashing, I was just telling my wife this morning, that all the corruption that gets exposed on TWW is actually quite consistent with the NT warning of beware of wolves in sheeps clothing. they are kind. And I think (as an atheist heathen) that what people really need is community, not so much the religious stuff. Nathan Priddis: I was led to view Clement of Rome as a sort of beloved father in our historical progression. During this same time period, Harvest also employed Jenkins' son, Dallas Jenkins, as executive director of Vertical Church Films. Elsewhere on this thread I talked about a situation where itd be cruel imo to air public matters. We all know who is trustworthy, mature and wise to go to for advice or counsel. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Driscolls board is down to him as President and director, Jimmy Evans and Randall Taylor (who I believe is an attorney). No wonder why Harvest is in such a mess with leaders like you. I think you are correct in noting this early Church writer's statements. This is no different then the very worst of false teachers in 2019. He is son of celebrated Left Behind author Jerry Jenkins. Face it, Dallas, HBCs elders messed up BIG TIME by not reining in James a long time ago. I guess I mean that a person, on his or her own, cant do it without God working it out in that person. Talk is cheap lets see some action. 4107 N Steele Blvd, Fayetteville, AR, 72703, United States. Maybe you should have considered the consequences of your actions, or inaction, before you decided to hitch your wagon to JM. He claimed he felt God "laying on his heart" that "in several years The Chosen was going to be what people thought of when they pictured the disciples." More Dont ever feel like your input here is ever wasted. Thats their business, doesnt have jack to do with church abuse. . Q: Why do narcissists go to seminary? I know we have to hunt to keep down the population of wild creatures, especially in areas where they dont have any natural predators, so they dont destroy the environment and/or starve. Why is the main blogger and moderator so quick to shut down comments. Finally, you deactivated your Twitter account a week ago. Ive had 58 years to observe her fruit, and, while not perfect, she has proven generally consistent and trustworthy. Does that make you manly? Sad. (And our atheist friend shows humility, respect, and insight.) They have acted like they dont believe that with no fear of God but payday is coming someday when they stand before their Creator. Theyre showing their colors alright. Vincent: It seems that this website is a place where nobodys can act in Gods place as judge and jury. If bolstering the credibility of truth-tellers is a problem to you, your commitments are misplaced (to put it mildly). Many are passionate about their cause, but it is far too often found to be a misplaced passion. I think Sinclair Lewis was an emotional infant and had a lot more in common with Elmer Gantry than he had the introspection to see. And I know that we are falling far short of appropriating the spiritual resources available to us as Christians to make a difference in this world not with what we think, but what we know. 4107 N Steele Blvd, Fayetteville, AR, 72703, United States. Does that make you manly? Sad. In all honesty, Dallas, since Mac and those around him, including you, took great delight in his being a very public ministry with great influence and far reach, this is a matter for public airing. SiteSeer: Is there a foolproof system that cant be gamed? Chapel (Spiritual Life Conference): Dr. Jim Allman. Didnt Paul rejoice from prison that the gospel was preached, whether from false motives or true? On April 8, 2012, their desire became reality as the North Shore Campus launched its first service at the Winnetka Community House. Never! As both Luke and Peter write, they use all three Greek terms in the same context, regarding the same office, filled by the same men. We must realize that there are certain qualifications given concerning elders. elastigirl: i take no more stock in what paul thinks than i do in what i think. Just them asking me to become an elder told me something was wrong. Does that make you manly? Sad. The false institutional church was reconstituted by Constantine, who asserted the right to define and regulate what was orthodox and permissible. but now that theyre all in different places, what does each mean now? It doesnt even look vibrant anymore. Both Steve Carter and Jenkins waited for public outcry and then expressed their moral outrage. they also have worthy things to say which others benefit from. Wonderful, on point comment. I am there; have been close to 8-years now. I have personally seen that place and I want no one to go there. The Riverside-based Harvest Christian Fellowship will be joining the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant body that has about 15 million members.The Rev. . I dont know, if one follows Twitter, there are several who have commented that attended church with JMac in his youth, and they have nothing positive to say about him or his character from way back. Thanks for the reply. Any truth about MacDonald as a bad-boy preacher needs to be made public! . I dont get the impression that Dee is OK with Hall at all. To no avail, because his problem is not that he struggles with imperfection but that he is a fake, a phony, a self-seeking narcissist who manipulates and abuses others for self profit and aggrandizement. This place needs to be shut down. God doesnt need Harvest and in fact Id be willing to say the spirit of Jezebel has been leading that place since the early 2000s. You made my laugh. Many parents contacted the school about it, and it was one of the first of many, many issues that arose there. Driscoll was a featured speaker at that event last year. This is how all men will know that you are my disciples, because you have such love for one another.. Hours . Ill have to ruminate on that a while. There are some 30,000 Christian denominations and parachurch organizations in the world. The majority of the people who were questioning you were NOT anonymous (including me), and there is more factual information about HBC on Twitter than there has ever been from HBC leaders own mouths, including yours. Does anyone here think Dallas wouldnt have delighted in pointing out a series of lies being told about Harvest leaders and defending himself? This is not to defend JM or associates, but to note that the vision of eternal punishments that motivates (or justifies, or both) a lot of ministry in churches in the Western theological tradition (I keep coming back to that; sorry, but I have come to believe its important) puts a very heavy weight on one side of the cost/benefit calculus in ministry. On a side note, Im wondering if the wealth of knowledge that you and others like Jessica Hockett possesswondering if perhaps the two of you, along with a few other key people, have considered meeting and strategizing what could be some next steps going forward to help ensure that Gods people will never again be fleeced by the likes of James MacDonald, Luke MacDonald, Rick Donald, Jeff Donaldson, and, if it comes down to it, Donald Duck. The idea of going back to church for real makes me nauseous. Craig French: Thanks for confirming the authenticity of the content, Dallas. Its like a slow drip how the top dogs at HBC are resigning one by one! not violent I will try and reign it in. 1/3 https://t.co/2PHkVGmEfJ, © 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 - The Wartburg Watch. Same thing church leaders told Mars Hill members after Driscolls exit and Willow Creek after Hybels exit. God has shown great favor and grace to Harvest Bible Chapel, allowing us to plant churches, host in thriving mens, womens events, and student gatherings, and creating ministries centering around outreach in our communities. Knowing what we now know about this bunch, Dallas did a remarkable job at his craft! Perpetua herself (the presumed writer of most of the Acts) also spends a lot of time talking about prophetic dreams and suchlike. Maybe thats why the history of the church is a history of exodus from established groups and setting up of new ones? Maybe out of kindness because he didnt want to embarrass anyone too much? I was not hoping or expecting to find this. You have not taken full responsibility for your actions. In destructive cults that pose as Christian megas, there is evidently an attitude of privilege and authority among those who call themselves elders that is simply nonexistent in the Bibleit seems anti-Christ, actually. So be careful, dont shoot before you think. Such men do not really serve our Lord Jesus Christ at all but are utterly self-centred. Many have joined the Done ranks done with the institutional church, but not done with Jesus. But that tends to require some kind of a hierarchy where some subset of the larger group comes up with stated or unstated norms and consequences for violating the norms. Does anyone have examples of big churches that are emblems of integrity? For example, priests cannot conduct divine liturgy without laity present, the liturgy cannot proceed without the participation of the laity saying amen during various parts of the liturgy and prayers, and bishops cannot ordain priests with the amen of the laity in the congregation. Dont think our former pastors quite there. Or, in English, It certainly didnt protect anyone. This disturbing senior pastor made fun of other HBC church leaders for their physical attributes that he deemed not up to snuff with his obvious sartorial sense and unsurpassed personal good looks. Having read the explanations of some of the associates and enablers who have pulled away from HBC, this does seem to have been part of why they put up with the wrongness coming from the top. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: So, so much we dont know. Some might even suggest it seems suspiciously tied to new disclosures concerning films he made, gambling issues which have also concerned both Dallas and his father, etc. But your comment proves you are doing exactly what you oppose. The true believers need to either find a local church or seek spiritual counseling because they have a VERY warped sense of church. Well, Amy, youve provided us a rather disgusting look at the character of these characters! not given to wine Id only add that the scar and damage to my faith as a result of Harvest is real, deeply painful, and permanent. If they couldnt get it right after three years of intensive time with Jesus, what chance do we have? I can completely understand why Dee wouldnt want people here to be dragging stuff out and speculating about a teenage boy. We celebrated Gods blessing of 100 church plants in just 14 years in 2014. makes me think of being in a warm shower or warm bath, you just dont want to get out. These qualifications must be met if one is to be a pastor for the flock of God. having faithful children Airing Mr. and Mrs. MacDonalds dirty laundry or private correspondence in that case on a public forum would be gossipy and downright cruel. I guess thats why I share my story, in hopes that others can be forewarned. This statement just doesnt sound much like what Jesus talked to the twelve about. Yowzers, you have me stumped. Fans of hit TV series The Chosen know creator Dallas Jenkins' "five loaves and two fish story". He will spend years building a good rapport before gradually working toward his true agenda. Our staff and volunteer leaders cant wait to welcome your kids to our safe, secure, age-appropriate program. Then, you proceeded to brag on social media about how you werent releasing your full statement and had convinced other men with statements to do the same. Its obvious that theres not enough scintilla of evidence to convict most of them of being Christian. Thats too deep to answer. Jenkins has produced many TV series and films. Many a victim of domestic or spiritual abuse might have been better protected by understanding this reality. All of the above is not an option, but it seems hard to pick one over any other. Why would a person, individually, or a community put up with this behavior? This could be real or fabricated, such as recordings of people, say, playing the Name Game, or threats of kicking their kids out, planting child porn on their devices or otherwise destroying their reputations. part of it a fear of the outside that is purposely cultivated in church environments. Harvest Bible Chapel - Elgin Campus - Fall 2011 Women's Campus Groups The Elgin, Illinois campus of Harvest Bible Chapel is is lead by Senior Pastor James MacDonald. Their influence will spread exponentially once decentralized. General Groupthink consensus did the job very well by itself. Consider the listing of qualifications which Paul wrote to Titus and Titus: A BISHOP MUST BE Of course Im not omniscient, only God knows. We must put our unreserved trust in God alone, and to at least some degree view all men even our most trusted loved ones by their fruits. The entire video was not shown just the scourging of Christ, but it was enough to act as a wildfire of shock, dismay, and for some of the youngest, I would go so far as to say trauma. We only saw the one tomb. I presume this is because he has a much bigger platform, but if that is not the reason, I am open to hear. Vincent: Satin has really pulled the wool over your eyes. Surely some student got it on their phone. but i have gained a newfound joy in being a member of the human race. Jesus held onto me and he will hold onto you. Sunday services, weekly small groups, other events all give meaning to peoples lonely lives, and the rest is mostly fluff. It allows us to pour more money into local ministries and needs as well as overseas ministries. As if someone who chooses to remain anonymous has no right to speak. Someone asked How high does this go? information from others can be beneficial. I remember it vividly because our child was very, very deeply disturbed and upset, AS WAS I. I had not ever seen the movie, nor intended to ever see it. Straight up, you need to rethink this. Gone on any safaris or gambling junkets with MacDonald & your dad? Or rather, a simulacrum of an ancient city. In April 2016, Harvest acquired a permanent church facility in Aurora to allow the Aurora Campus to continue to grow, both in number and effectiveness in reaching people for Christ. Someone even mentioned an anti-Christ component here, which I agree with. Women's Bible Study. Thats a remarkably long time for the wheels to fall off. There have been many people demanding our statements be made public, and now that they are, are rejoicing in that, all while commenting from anonymous online handles. That incident was only the tip of the iceberg. Indeed, I tremble considering even posting this brief comment for fear of retribution. None of the Synoptic gospels have that same setup. can you elaborate on what went on during and after the showing of The Passion Of The Christ? Concerned for the vulnerable animals safety, he left his own gun by its side. Jeepers we were fools! "After hearing of the accusation, the Human Resources department of Harvest Bible Chapel proactively reached out to Mrs. Green on September 30, 2018, via email and text." And if the insight and oversight in wisdom and understanding must come from books or online, so be it. Dallas Jenkins: It was given to the elders two months ago. For you, maybe, but not for most here. And are angry. As our leaders prayed and sought to plant churches in the city of Chicago, a small congregation with a struggling church in Niles was looking for new life. Oh well we cant all have cheese with our mac, Dallas, old son. He already gets $500K tax free per year in deferred comp, plus reportedly around $200K tax free in parsonage allowance. Was it because he met the qualifications for eldership? Today, CBS Chicago featured Former Harvest Bible Chapel Members Want $72,000 In Donations Refunded, After Pastor James MacDonald Fired Their strong Christian beliefs led Scott and Marsha Thompson to volunteer at Harvest Bible Chapel, and donate more than $72,000 over the course of several years. Notice how you need to be part of this first hand, and not from a distance like on the world wide web for even unbelievers to see. Feb 14, 2022 . Without any explanation, Dee says she is convinced that Hall is repentant. Why would a quickly growing church choose an unproven young man, father of very young children (along with others similarly unproven, all from our young marrieds class) to be an elder, responsible for overseeing and counseling others? If they couldnt get it right after three years of intensive time with Jesus, what chance do we have? That, in my humble, fallible opinion, explains much of the evil that has taken place in this world. Im a witness that almost everything you re reading and hearing is true.. Note, that they are always mentioned in a plural form. yup, great biblical example here! All our campuses gathered together for three consecutive Saturdays of the summer Ravinia style. Association of Related Churches You dont even need a Pastor/Dictator at the peak for things to go sour. 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